Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with me, and thank you again for being in part inspiration for me to write this! I love those organic moments of serendipity out here in cyberia! :lol:

Oh wow! May I ask about your experiences in Japan? I’d love to hear about them sometime, and you’re quite right about how geisha are treated/perceived there.

On my last trip to Japan, about four years ago now, I visited Kyoto and met several working geisha. One woman I met was fabulous. She has a masters degree in economics, but decided to become a geisha because of the money she could earn, and she was already doing very well, (I believe she worked for Mitsubishi Heavy Industries prior), but now earns a six-figure income from doing parties.

We’re likely going back this autumn — I like to get to Japan at least every few years, but it’s an expensive trip to make.

Tho, as I eluded to in my piece, the work which goes into it, meaning the “beauty and suffering factor” is a grind. She has to pay to get her hair done, special makeup (very expensive because you don’t want the cheap stuff because it’ll destroy your skin), workouts at the gym, always refining her skills/learning new ones, pays a guy to come and dress her in her kimono every night, has to buy many kimono (which cost a fortune - anywhere from 10k - 20k US each), and everything else which goes along with being a woman — so it’s a lot of work! But, she also said that her parents are incredibly proud of her too - as many parents of geisha in Japan are. So, thanks for reinforcing my points about how geisha have been characterized by American pop-culture and a lot of myths. Maiko do not sell their virginity to the highest bidder! Nor do geisha sleep with clients! good lord… ugh!!! Grr!!!

But, to your other points –

I completely understand and agree with you regarding your sentiments about hookers who engage in risky practices, but I think a man having a fling or extra-marital affair is taking a bigger risk than the one who sees a prostitute. In those ‘fling’ situations, there’s usually other emotional factors which contribute to people taking chances — hookers generally just want to get it over with as quickly as possible, and don’t usually take those kinds of risks under any circumstances.

Women I have known who have worked as escorts, like the one who Eliot Spitzer was with, are usually charging a premium fee, have a classier appearance, and if you saw them on the street, you’d probably never guess how they earn a living. Those girls don’t take risks either. Courtesans can sometimes be, and often are, a little different, because they usually only have two or three exclusive clients who pay them very well. But even in those circumstances, those girls don’t take risks either - no matter how much money the guy has or offers. What you’re describing I think is the “sum of all fears” that any wife has, and I think you’re describing the ‘crack-whore’ here, not professional sex workers. Most women who are sex workers know better and the risks of having unprotected sex are just way too high, and it just doesn’t happen.

And again, I think a woman is at bigger risk of catching something nasty if her man were fooling around with a girl in his office rather than seeing a professional.

But seriously, I’m married too - and I expect my husband to honor and respect me, and yes, I expect and demand fidelity. Tho, my situation has been a little more colorful… but, still, I have expectations and yes, they are met.

And no, I don’t think you, or any of us, should ever be in that position to decide. It’s terribly unfair when a man (or woman) cheats on any level. Tho I’ve often found that men will cheat for sex… women usually cheat for love. But if we’re at that point, the marriage is over anyway I think.

Thanks again!

nina

Having spent considerable time in Japan, I know well the respect afforded Geisha. It’s a far cry from the disdain with which we look upon escorts and prostitutes here in the US. Even the men who pay for time with Geisha are treated as esteemed gentlemen, making their activities not only tolerated, but admired.

But I don’t live in Japan, and neither does Eliot Spitzer, and I’m not talking about women who posess the skills and grace of the Geisha. I’m talking about hookers who, for an extra $50 will let a john have unprotected sex sending God knows what home to the little missus.

We shouldn’t have to wonder or worry what our spouses are up to when they’re away from us. I don’t know anyone in this country who was forced to marry. If people (men) want to screw around, it’s simple; stay single and play the field.

I for one took my marriage vows very seriously. Could I forgive my husband if he dallied with a call girl? I honestly don’t know. But why should I even be put in the position of having to decide?

Great post as always Nina!!

Lola

Yes, I know hon, and I do appreciate that, as I’ve expressed to you.

But maybe we should leave ‘cleanup and duty fluffing’ over on your side of the street? :razz:

nina

Well these cosmic forces are larger than all of us! But that’s okay… that’s how it’s supposed to be! :lol:

Getting in touch with your feminine energy and understanding that your power flows from that place inside you sounds so easy, but it’s often the hardest thing for many of us to do and incorporate into our lives.

I think life in the last 30 years or so has tried to unwire us in so many ways by constantly trying to push us up against those glass ceilings — and while much of this was needed, because we should be treated equally in all areas of life — we also need to remember that we’re different. We’re not men. So why are we often expected to act like men and are criticized for acting like women? In many ways I think we’re the round pegs that the world keeps trying to shove into its square holes.

We’ve been getting conflicting messages from society for years, and quite frankly I think it’s left a whole bunch of us confused about who we’re supposed to be! But when we simply let all of that go and give ourselves permission to just be who we’re meant to be, everything else begins to flow according to the way nature intended. I think, even on a subconscious level, we’ve been trained to fight that and have been conditioned to hide and be ashamed of our femininity, unless of course it’s serving the needs of a man, but then it’s okay, right? So, you see, we need to take control of our own selves first before we’re any good to anyone else.

Yes, relationships are complicated, but I think ultimately the same rules apply. But for some reason we keep trying to reinvent the wheel when the old one worked just fine!

Thanks sweetie!

nina

I was just trying to clarify some of the aspects of FemDom cuckolding about which you asked.

xoxox

-saratoga

Well, clearly your perspective on all of these issues is seen thru the lens of your own perspective: Femdom.

And while I appreciate the context by which you write and the insights you offer… to the larger extent of where my perspective resides — it’s much more ensconced in the ideas of how women feel in these situations of relationship stability and expectations from those relationships — not so much about the ins/outs of bdsm & cuckoldry.

I certainly respect your point of view, and where your particular ‘fetish’ comes into play with relation to the ideas of monogamy and fidelity… but I’m just not so sure I think ‘cleanup and duty fluffing’ is what I’m looking for here!

But, you know I always appreciate your twisted point of view on things hon. :lol:

Thanks,

nina

Very good and thoughtful ideas all in your reply to my comments.

I think the post I’m outlining now will provide some really fresh ideas about FemDom cuckolding, if not polyamory.

For starters, tho, your question as to whether or not the male submissive has a choice is, for me, a very key attribute of the context.

Some do, and that is where the ‘pillow talk’ version can occur. One blog to which I link gave me material for this post on fluffing the male bull… here.

Suffice to say, there’s a lot more room for development in these complex, interesting and related topics- polyamory, cuckoldry, bonding, and oxytocin.

xoxox
-saratoga

Thanks so much for your input on this topic — there are certainly many lenses by which we can view this issue, and certainly bdsm and other fetish play is one of them, tho I think in that world there often seems to be a different set of rules by which people use to govern their behavior — tho it’s certainly not off topic by any means at all.

“How does one define success in polyamory or cuckoldry?”

Interesting question, tho I’m not sure that I’m the best to answer it only because ‘cuckolding’ is so far out of my sphere of experience. Tho after I get past my initial ‘ick factor’… I do have some thoughts on that topic which may be relevant.

From my observation, and again, not speaking from any kind of practical experience — I cannot comprehend where the pleasure is derived by/for a man from watching his wife/gf/lover having sex with another man, or, by simply being aware that she is, or, in knowing that she intends to have sex with another man. I know that there are some pretty exclusive terms in the bdsm world to describe these types of scenes or arrangements, and from your sphere of view, that being a Femdom situation, I imagine the idea is to derive gratification from humiliation - which on a sexual level is something I can fathom and relate with to a degree. I mean, I “get” the concept.

However, I think cuckolding itself is fraught with dangers to any primary relationship, which people never seem to think thru, or, maybe they do and that’s part of the rush? The idea that you could lose your lover to another man? I’m not a man so I can’t get my head there to understand the attraction, or do men in a Femdom or similar situation just not have a choice in the matter? And from my perspective, I would not derive gratification from humiliating my husband in that way, and I’m not one of those women who subscribes to the “hot-wife” mentality either. Personally, I think that’s just an excuse to define bad judgement and incredibly selfish choices & behavior.

As we did discuss privately the other day, whenever I hear the term ‘cuckold’ I always think back to the movie American Gigolo where the husband hires Richard Gere to come fuck his wife while he watches… and it ends badly! While perhaps it isn’t the best analogy, it’s what pops into my mind - (along with the incredibly hot scene of Richard Gere getting dressed to Smoky Robinson’s “The love I saw in you was just a mirage” - purrrr!!)

Although, on further thought… there’s certainly a very healthy fantasy aspect in which couples explore these ideas together in a safe and controlled way - meaning with dildos, props, pillow-talk, etc… without actually bringing another human being into the bedroom, and that’s something I most definitely ‘get’. I think couples wander into the danger area, as so many often do, when they try to convert their private bedroom fantasies into real life experience. Some fantasies should remain fantasies, kwim?

Your other question:

“One thing that occurred to me as I read your readers’ comments and your response is the notion of what are ’successful’ and/or ‘unsuccessful’ examples of any of these non-monogamous situations.”

You know, even the term “successful” is so hard to define here. Perhaps any relationship which doesn’t self-destruct after an incident of infidelity, or one which manages somehow to muddle thru an open-marriage arrangement? I really don’t have a good answer for that one, perhaps because such situations don’t register for me as making sense to begin with? I don’t know how any relationship survives if neither partner is expected to maintain fidelity and is free to simply sleep with whomever they choose. Tho, I’m always open to listening to others’ opinions and thoughts on that one.

But, my last thought of the moment, has to do with our concurrent conversations about oxytocin and how it impacts all of these ideas and points of view.

When women are intimate, especially with a man, the release of the ‘brain chemical/hormone’ oxytocin is a real and measurable cause/effect phenomenon. We bond with our lovers in this way, and as we’re repeatedly intimate with our partners, the bond strengthens.

That perhaps is the strongest argument for monogamy - that we are indeed wired that way, and anything which occurs outside of that established bond, in my opinion, runs the risk of destroying it, so maybe it’s better to not play with fire?

Tho geishaland is an open minded place! So who am I to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t do? I just try to examine the realities of these very basic instincts and try every now and then to make some sense of it all!

Thanks hon! ;)

nina

Nice post. Of course, as you know and we’ve discussed, the whole FemDom cuckolding thing is one aspect of this topic.

Some of your other readers have touched on polyamory in a bdsm or FemDom setting, and it is, of course, one facet of this topic.

But cuckoldry is something even a little different, as it combines power transfer and poly, or not, depending upon the whims of the Mistress/Cuckoldress.

One thing that occurred to me as I read your readers’ comments and your response is the notion of what are ’successful’ and/or ‘unsuccessful’ examples of any of these non-monogamous situations.

How does one define success in polyamory or cuckoldry?

Is it a function of time? Feelings? On whose part?

I have now begun outlining that second ‘oxytocin-cuckolding’ post which you urged me to consider writing.

xoxox
-saratoga

Oh yes… I think so. If you think about our evolution, males have always pursued the female of the species! And we play right into it too! Of course, of course! Who doesn’t like male attention? :lol:

We really haven’t changed all that much since we climbed down out of the trees!

And yes, a very timely post I think, too. :razz:

Well, I’m not sure that I completely agree with you on the concept of monogamy changing. However, what I think has changed is the idea that women can own their sexuality and be free to explore our sexuality in a more open environment. The idea that women have orgasms, or might actually want to get laid isn’t the foreign idea it once was… but underneath it all I think we still want the same things as we ever did, maybe we just go about getting there in different ways now.

Young people, especially younger women, have an advantage now because of the freedoms we’ve fought for. But, I think this has also had adverse consequences as well. I mean, just because a woman can have a “fuck-buddy” doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s the best situation for her.

In some ways I think the sexual freedom we’ve earned gave rise to this idea of ’slut-chic’ where we tossed away all good sense and traded it in for pure experience, just because we could — and after watching the boys have all the fun, we wanted to level the playing field. In some ways this was good, in others, not so much. I’m a big believer in “all things in moderation”, but then again, I’ve over 30… so who knows if I know what the hell I’m talking about! You may see things from an entirely different perspective than I do.

What’s also interesting is that I’ve been having an on-going conversation with a friend about oxytocin and how it affects a woman’s instinct to bond, and how and why we form intimate attachments with our lovers. Those things haven’t changed, even tho how we approach relationships may have.

Another idea is that as we’ve grown more equal in society and have broken down many barriers, it isn’t unreasonable anymore for a woman to decide that she doesn’t want to follow the typical plan — you know, get married, push out a bunch of kids and stay home. And that’s a good thing for us I think, to at least have the option… the choice… but even still, I believe most of us on some level really want that in some form, and yes, I still think we want and expect our partners to be monogamous when we enter those relationships.

Women build nests… that’s who we are, and I think we expect our mate to stay in that nest with us too.

Sex is still sex… it isn’t the nature that’s changed, but rather the role it plays in our lives which has evolved.

Thanks hon! ;)

nina