Then of course there are “spectacles” created by people who can be grouped into the category of “attention whores”, people whose lives are empty and they have a need to draw attention to themselves by any means necessary (think JT Leroy and Lonelygirl15).

Let’s start with something obvious first. How do we know that person’s mom knows? From that person herself. I question why anyone would want to share that with any public set of wandering eyes. It doesn’t make sense to me. And her interview is a 180-degree turn from what she’s said for a long time. It doesn’t make sense.

I’m no expert, but these “high-end” call girls always like to avoid public situations like this. Again, it doesn’t make sense.

Even the alleged Belle de Jour in the UK maintains a low profile even though she’s written a book and inspired a tv series. She’s taken precautions to stay out of the public eye.

Again, like I said, I’m no expert here, but something doesn’t add up.

And something else that I’m finding amusing as I “read around” (yep, I’m a two-timing bastard lmao), is that some younger women are writing about how their boyfriends, ex-boyfriends, etc are handling them envelopes with money for manicures & pedicures in return for blowjobs and “longer sessions”.

I’m all for sex-workers’ rights. It’s the biggest waste of taxpayer money trying to enforce since the $3T War on Drugs that’s made a lot of people in the prison industry and other ancillary industries rich.

I think it also says something about people who won’t let themselves be loved.

That said, it’s always been this way throughout the generations and will always be that way. Technology is just something with the times.

Lazy Ichi,

A couple of thoughts:

There’s a lot which doesn’t quite add up about that particular situation, and all of the points you make are completely on target. I don’t get it either. And you’re right - the behaviors don’t make any sense at all. From watching that particular interview, it didn’t seem to me that there was a lot in common with the person being portrayed on that page — but you know, I don’t think we can ever underestimate anyone’s potential narcissism and need for attention.

But if you think about what happened to Ashlee Dupree — the media tracked down and exposed in nauseating detail every aspect of her life in a matter of days. I mean, the media even figured out that Fake Steve was just some guy writing for Forbes — point being that if there’s a way, the media will find out about it - so the obvious question: why potentially open yourself up to that? Why go on tv? Why seek that kind of attention? Why blog about it if indeed it is true? And a hooker with near flawless grammar? You don’t see that everyday now do you? So — who knows. That was really just an example, not really the main thrust of where I wanted to go with this. I personally could care less about that specific person or situation.

Tho I completely disagree with you on the technology point. You cannot underestimate the internet’s effect on the availability and accessibility for sex for hire. Even in other cultures technology has completely changed the way people date. In Japan for example - people use their cell phones to broadcast if they’re ‘available’ and tracking technology then lets you know when a potential partner who is also available is near you. Technology has changed everything — and in a larger context - it’s given rise to the hoaxes and frauds as you’ve pointed out too. So in the larger context - we really can’t know what’s true and what isn’t if all we have to go on is what someone happens to post on their blog.

The other thing which concerns me is that it seems that there’s somehow been a severe shift in attitudes among young women where it almost seems as tho they’ve completely devalued the worth of their sexuality and in many instances, they behave worse than boys ever did. To me the most intimate thing we do is allow a man into our bodies — that this is now traded for gifts is disturbing — but then again! lmao! Nothing has changed at all! It’s always been that way! It’s just more out in the open now! Women have always traded access to their vagina (or other body orifice) for tangibles. It just seems that the attitudes surrounding this have become exacerbated and amplified. So maybe — what they’ve realized is that their sexuality can become an enormous payday. Slut Chic seems to be in - tho I was beginning to think that we were starting to see a shift in the other direction. So who knows?

Last point: I’m for legalized prostitution too (as it is in Nevada) where women (and men) are in a safe environment and where women at least are required to get weekly health checks. People are going to have sex - for just sex — my own romantic notions that love should be attached to that are just my own opinion. But I’m not so innocent not to recognize that for some, sex is a means to an end, and we shouldn’t judge that. We should do everything we can to make it safe. Tho my greater concern… and really the whole point of this… Why choose that life to begin with? That’s the real question here.

nina

I actually told a half truth — I once worked as a phone sex girl. Maybe I need to write about that again.

They were all good to me, one even bought me expensive things, took me on trips and gave me money – tho it was never anything so forward as I’ll suck your cock for 100 bucks – but the subtlety was still there.

So you recognize the subtlety, and find the need to state outright that you never been a “paid sex worker.” Yet, what you describe, at least on a superficial level smacks of prostitution, does it not? And you know, some people equate marriage with prostitution even.

As I’ve said in the past, some women (people) have no problem disassociating the emotional aspects of sex with the physical aspects of sex. Don’t assume that because you can’t, others can’t as well. I know in your heart you understand that, yet you still seem to have trouble understanding that concept (IMO). Or, perhaps, grasping it. Maybe you do truly understand it; you just don’t want to understand it - you don’t want it to be true. Maybe? Am I reading that wrong?

A couple of other points. If you do a search for the high end escorts online, and read through their web sites, you can see there are plenty of “hookers with flawless grammar.” Don’t assume that because someone uses “flawless” grammar, they’re not really hookers. Many escorts are very highly educated I’ve found.

I certainly agree that few women would ever want their child to grow up to become hookers. I also suspect that few women would want their children to grow up to do a lot of things (or what you might refer to as “legitimate” jobs, “safe” jobs, “real” jobs?).

I think the important thing to understand here is that we need to respect any woman’s choice, so long as it is a reasonably informed choice, whether we agree with it or not. Some may make mistakes, sure. Life is about making mistakes and dealing with them. Some of these women choose to maintain a “low profile” and remain out of the limelight, while others choose not to and use the light to bring attention to the lack of sex workers’ rights, the need to legalize the industry and so forth.

I know, based on stuff I’ve seen you post and in our conversations that you truly do not operate from a judgmental position. I also know, however, that you operate from the position of not having interacted with or spoken at length with people who actually do work in the sex industry. As you state, your opinions are based upon what you’ve seen in the media and written in various blogs and whatnot. One of my biggest pet peeves is people who allow what the media pushes represent the “truth” when the vast majority of those who actually do work in the sex industry tell you that it is not always true. Honestly, two years ago, I held the same opinion as you do in many instances. As I have interacted with those who work in the sex industry and those who work for sex workers’ rights, I have come to see these people in a whole new light.

I also agree with you that it seems as though it is becoming more “acceptable” for young women to enter sex work. If you operate from the assumption that sex must involve emotional connectivity with a partner, then that is certainly problematic. If you view sex work as a legitimate form of “work,” then there should be no problem with it. Is the fact that someone can detach the need for emotional connectivity to sexual encounters a positive thing or a negative thing? I don’t know, but it does happen, and therefore some will choose that path. As the vast majority of people who comment on blogs and news stories will state, we need to legalize the work, regulate it and do all that we can do to ensure the safety of those who choose to go that route.

I have asked, on numerous occasions, for someone, anyone, of the more salient writers in the field of sex education to address the hypersexualization of our society and discuss how we (sex educators, doctors, parents, teachers, etc.) need to teach young people (women especially, but the guys as well) to understand this concept and how to deal with it. As you suggest, a lot of young women go into sex work because of distorted understandings of sexuality and how it relates to their own sense of self. In today’s “abstinence only” environment, this is even more critical because there is certainly no attempt to do this now. Sadly, no one has taken this on as a cause yet. I am not yet qualified to address that. Perhaps one day.

And, finally, I’ll address your last question. Why choose that life to begin with? There are no other job where young women can make anything remotely approaching the amount of money they can make doing sex work. Absolutely none. Unless you inherit money or win the lottery, you’re not going to make in one year what you can make in a couple of months doing sex work. With the increasing costs of college, living expenses, and nowadays the cost of even basic subsistence with the increasing cost of fuel and food, my question is really why more women don’t do it. If you want the money, and don’t have the personal requirement to attach emotive connectivity to the act of sex, then there’s nothing holding you back, really.

Anyway, I hope I haven’t rambled on too much. As you know, this is a subject I have become serious about over the past year or so.

Caitlain,

Yes - I realize that this subject has become very personal for you. I’m sorry that my words ’seem’ to have provoked you here, but I will do my best to answer your questions and clarify my positions, fair enough?

“So you recognize the subtlety, and find the need to state outright that you never been a “paid sex worker.” Yet, what you describe, at least on a superficial level smacks of prostitution, does it not? And you know, some people equate marriage with prostitution even.”

Oh that’s a bit of a cynical view of marriage and relationships don’t you think? I know that some of the more extreme feminist text I’ve read pushes that agenda - marriage as prostitution — but I don’t agree with it. Nor do I see making a conscious choice to become a sex worker as a path to female liberation either. I’ve never viewed my own marriage as prostitution. I’m someone’s wife, I’m someone’s mother, I have a family, and I’m happy in each and every one of those choices.

My reference to a relationship I had with a man while I was divorced who was very nice to me also doesn’t even come close to being a paid sex worker either. I’m a little surprised you’ve made that leap. I don’t think my words suggested that at all — the subtlety I referred to spoke to the ideas that men often have towards the women in their lives. It spoke more about his intent and attitudes rather than my own — and considering that I’m now remarried to my husband, I think I figured that one out all by myself. He was nice to me. Sometimes the ways he was nice to me made me uncomfortable. I’m not quite sure how you connected that to prostitution here.

“As I’ve said in the past, some women (people) have no problem disassociating the emotional aspects of sex with the physical aspects of sex. Don’t assume that because you can’t, others can’t as well. I know in your heart you understand that, yet you still seem to have trouble understanding that concept (IMO). Or, perhaps, grasping it. Maybe you do truly understand it; you just don’t want to understand it - you don’t want it to be true. Maybe? Am I reading that wrong?”

In reading this I think you’ve stated your point wrong - and yes, I believe you are reading my words wrong too. What I ‘believe’ you were trying to say is that because I cannot separate the emotional from the physical it doesn’t mean that other women can and are able to separate the two. But if you continue reading — you’ll notice where I made the point that women have been having sex with men they don’t love since the beginning of time, and that women can and do live with a lot. So — I think I’m well able to understand this point.

Other people’s choices don’t influence my life. And I don’t make assumptions about other people’s motivations or intents — tho I have no problem making the statement that I cannot separate the physical from the emotional. So what? That doesn’t mean that I think that should be the way it is for everyone else. Where’d you get that from?

“A couple of other points. If you do a search for the high end escorts online, and read through their web sites, you can see there are plenty of “hookers with flawless grammar.” Don’t assume that because someone uses “flawless” grammar, they’re not really hookers. Many escorts are very highly educated I’ve found.”

Well — this works both ways. You’ve actually made my point about the internet enabling more women to advertise themselves and their sexual services. And pulling a single remark out of a comment — and out of context — made to someone else really isn’t fair, is it? And while in your school project work you may have interviewed a few dozen escorts - I’m not convinced that it’s a true representative sample. There’s no way for me to know the education level of your average escort - and certainly there are many women who make the choice to become sex workers who are well educated. Again, so what? I don’t believe I made a direct or even an indirect connection between education or lack of education as a predicator for making the decision to be a sex worker in my post. The decisions to become a sex worker, I believe, are made from an entirely different psychological place in each woman and for entirely different reasons than what her specific education level may be.

However — that said — I cannot believe that the majority of ‘prostitutes’ have an MBA. And what we’re really doing here is splitting hairs on language. You can call it escorting, hooking, prostitution - whatever — still means the same thing, and there are many forms of prostitution in this life, kwim?

But let me also say unequivocally — I do not believe everything I read on the internet, and leave it at that.

“I certainly agree that few women would ever want their child to grow up to become hookers. I also suspect that few women would want their children to grow up to do a lot of things (or what you might refer to as “legitimate” jobs, “safe” jobs, “real” jobs?).”

Speaking as a mother — of a son tho, not a daughter — we always want the best things in life for our children. It’s a constant struggle to know when to hold on and when to let go. We’d like to believe as parents that we’ve done a good job raising our kids and that they’ll be happy in life in whatever choices they make and we hope that we’ve given them the skills to make good choices for themselves — however love is blind when it comes to our children, and no matter what they choose to do — we love them anyway — even when their choices hurt us or are not what we would have wanted for them. We still love them and support them. At last that’s my view on this. You know — the greatest hurt in the world any woman can know is something bad happening to her child. It’s a pain I don’t think you can understand in your circumstances right now.

“I think the important thing to understand here is that we need to respect any woman’s choice, so long as it is a reasonably informed choice, whether we agree with it or not. Some may make mistakes, sure. Life is about making mistakes and dealing with them. Some of these women choose to maintain a “low profile” and remain out of the limelight, while others choose not to and use the light to bring attention to the lack of sex workers’ rights, the need to legalize the industry and so forth.“

I’m not sure I agree with this one. I’ll have to think about that.

But — in the comment above where you found my remark so offensive - I was quite clear in my statement of belief that prostitution should be made legal and safe for all parties involved. Tho as it stands now — selling your body for money is illegal in almost every part of this country - and the world on a larger scale. Levels of enforcement may vary from place to place (The Netherlands comes to mind as being more progressive) - but it in this country - it’s only legal in Nevada. You don’t necessarily see a lot of sex workers out advocating a change in policy. They tend to do their business and stay out of the public eye — but maybe I’m looking in the wrong places? Who knows. Could be.

Tho what I do know — women and children are trafficked and exploited and forced into lives of sexual slavery all over the world. There is no glamor or big paydays for them.

“I know, based on stuff I’ve seen you post and in our conversations that you truly do not operate from a judgmental position. I also know, however, that you operate from the position of not having interacted with or spoken at length with people who actually do work in the sex industry. As you state, your opinions are based upon what you’ve seen in the media and written in various blogs and whatnot. One of my biggest pet peeves is people who allow what the media pushes represent the “truth” when the vast majority of those who actually do work in the sex industry tell you that it is not always true. Honestly, two years ago, I held the same opinion as you do in many instances. As I have interacted with those who work in the sex industry and those who work for sex workers’ rights, I have come to see these people in a whole new light.”

I think you’re making an assumption yourself here about what my opinions are — but you’re quite right — I don’t judge the decisions others make. How can I? And again — while I understand that you have interviewed a few professional sex workers for your school project — I don’t know that this can equate to ‘knowing’ what it’s all about. I would agree with you that the media pushes an equally salacious agenda about anything sexual — which was also nuanced within my original post tho not directly. This speaks to the “influences on impressionable young women” which I referenced. Which then - I would agree. The media has done a horrible job in providing a balanced look at sex workers “overall” — tho the 20/20 series has been surprisingly fair in my opinion.

I think the fairest statement to make here is unless you’ve been a paid sex worker — you really don’t know what you’re talking about, and I freely admit that. Which is why I try to observe, read, and listen.

“I also agree with you that it seems as though it is becoming more “acceptable” for young women to enter sex work. If you operate from the assumption that sex must involve emotional connectivity with a partner, then that is certainly problematic. If you view sex work as a legitimate form of “work,” then there should be no problem with it. Is the fact that someone can detach the need for emotional connectivity to sexual encounters a positive thing or a negative thing? I don’t know, but it does happen, and therefore some will choose that path. As the vast majority of people who comment on blogs and news stories will state, we need to legalize the work, regulate it and do all that we can do to ensure the safety of those who choose to go that route.”

I can’t argue with that hon.

“I have asked, on numerous occasions, for someone, anyone, of the more salient writers in the field of sex education to address the hypersexualization of our society and discuss how we (sex educators, doctors, parents, teachers, etc.) need to teach young people (women especially, but the guys as well) to understand this concept and how to deal with it. As you suggest, a lot of young women go into sex work because of distorted understandings of sexuality and how it relates to their own sense of self. In today’s “abstinence only” environment, this is even more critical because there is certainly no attempt to do this now. Sadly, no one has taken this on as a cause yet. I am not yet qualified to address that. Perhaps one day.”

You know — this is a really great point. Our society has truly become hypersexual as you suggest — and there are many distortions of reality which influence both young women and men about their sexuality. It would be great if we could truly have comprehensive sex education as part of every school curriculum — tho I doubt we have the political will necessary to make that a reality.

“And, finally, I’ll address your last question. Why choose that life to begin with? There are no other job where young women can make anything remotely approaching the amount of money they can make doing sex work. Absolutely none. Unless you inherit money or win the lottery, you’re not going to make in one year what you can make in a couple of months doing sex work. With the increasing costs of college, living expenses, and nowadays the cost of even basic subsistence with the increasing cost of fuel and food, my question is really why more women don’t do it. If you want the money, and don’t have the personal requirement to attach emotive connectivity to the act of sex, then there’s nothing holding you back, really.”

You know — let me simply say this:

I find that statement to be a cop out and representative of what’s truly gone wrong with our society. Life is not about instant gratifications and immediate rewards. I have an education, I have a career, I work hard, and I’ve been rewarded for that. There are no guarantees in life - and if life is all about ’show me the money’ which it truly seems that it’s become, then that’s a real problem. Life is not all about ’show me the money’ — or at least it shouldn’t be in my very humble opinion. Opportunity in life is made, and women have made great progress in this country and have earned many rewards without ever having to give a blowjob to a stranger. And I think if the end game here is to make a ton of money because you may be pretty, sexy, and know your way around a penis — then that makes me sad, because I think it’s a shortcut and I think anyone who thought that would be shortchanging themselves. But again — these are just my opinions — formed from a lifetime of my own experiences.

“Anyway, I hope I haven’t rambled on too much. As you know, this is a subject I have become serious about over the past year or so.”

Caitlain — let me simply say this. I realize that this has become a serious subject for you. And I do respect and am always willing to listen to your (or anyone’s) opinions - especially if they diverge from my own. The only way we learn is by being challenged and by listening to what others have to offer. And I think you should re-read what I wrote and what I have shared with others in comments. I think that is a much better representative of my opinions.

I don’t have all the answers, nor am I even sure if my opinions make sense - they are simply the ones I have right now. Being willing to consider other points of view and being flexible is really the only measure of the quality of who you’re talking to and really is the only way to evaluate the kind of friend they are too.

xoxo,
nina

Jane, you ignorant slut . . . I mean, Nina, you wunnerful wunnerful person you. I think i was channeling SNL there for a moment. Was I?

I’ll have to go with Caitie on this one.

Almost all individual circumstances are different, but they’re all pretty much the same in the aggregate. A lot of it is driven by the economics. In some cases it’s hard to raise a kid by yourself if you’re a single mother on a normal job’s pay with the prices today.

My issue with the 20/20 interview is a bit different, mostly because she’s naive and there are better ways to get the message out; she was only looking for her 15 minutes, and all she’s letting on her blog are positive comments.

Commenters were even blaming ABC for showing her profile and in effect in their logic, giving her identity away; even though it was her choice to to do the interview.

So in effect, i don’t think she did anything positive by doing the interview. I agree that Diane Sawyer seemed even-handed on this, and yet most commenters on her blog trashed Sawyer. In my opinion, she lost any credibility she had built up before.

Music . . . .
Kudos to Henri Salvadore and “Il Fait Dimanche”. He’s an old guy. And he’s French.

And Torso…Sky Train.

And the Dining Rooms…nuff said.

lazy ichi kilpatrick,

Part of having this discussion is to exchange ideas and to listen to other opinions. Unfortunately we had a bit of a catfight - but things are fine. I have nothing but respect for Caitie and her views and opinions.

And truth be told - she’s done a lot more work on this than I have so she probably knows a bit more about this subject than me.

I don’t disagree with your point about the economics for single mothers with little kids at home and how difficult that is — but is the answer prostitution? I’m not sure. But I wouldn’t judge the woman who felt that that was her only option. And when I raised the question about “why would someone choose this life” this was the answer I expected: money.

But is the tradeoff worth it? I can only answer that for myself - I cannot nor would I try to make that decision for someone else.

I don’t know — it’s complicated. We’re raised to believe that sex is for love, and now it seems as tho everything in our society has twisted that and has turned it inside out.

Let me pose a question to you: In your opinion, is this about sex or money?

I mean in your example, your girl is a single mother with a kid at home. What other alternatives are we as a society providing for her, if any? Are we forcing women into making these choices? What about the girl with a college degree and no kids at home - does this model still fit?

That I think really determines which direction this conversation takes next - if it continues at all.

I really cannot and do not want to comment about what someone is writing on their blog - I mean, those are two entirely separate issues and all we really have are our own assumptions about motives and intent — which is a bad place to form good opinions.

For me I think this is still a very complicated issue. Much of this has to do with my own attitudes towards sex, but also as a woman, and a mother - and also unresolved feelings about my own mother. I’m very cognizant of how women and children are exploited worldwide and if we are truly to be an open and progressive society then we need to address this and bring it into the light rather than feeding into the same hypocrisy. We’re very comfortable here in the United States… and there are other options.

Tho I have to ask myself a hard question: would I turn a trick to feed my kid? Yes. I would. But those decisions are survival decisions not a conscious choice to become a sex worker “just because” - that doesn’t work for me for some reason. That’s the part I have a hard time accepting as something which makes sense. But again - I could be totally wrong on this too. I acknowledge that.

Tho I also thought Diane Sawyer was fair and the 20/20 series has for the most part been balanced.

nina

great discussion here, really. tough issues.
don’t know about the 20/20 thing,
but how about that mess in texas?
think it’s related in some weird way.

in the meantime…an interlude?…

two guys with scotches, overheard in a bar:

“Damn it, man, I can’t get my escort to put out!”

“Tell me about it…fuckin’ Fords.”

Ah, jokes it is . . .

Irish girl turns prostitute

Come here and give your old man a hug!”

Two men meet at the pearly gates of heaven. The first man says to the second, “Hey! How did you die?” The second man says, “I froze to death.” “Wow that must be a terrible way to die. What’s it feel like?” says the first man. “Well at first it hurts,” says the second man, “But after a while everything goes numb and it’s very peaceful. Like drifting off to sleep almost.

“How ironic,” Says the second man. “Why’s that?” Says the first. “If you’d only looked in the freezer then we’d both still be alive.”

The Mistress

A husband and wife are having dinner at a fine restaurant when this absolutely stunning young woman comes over to their table, gives the husband a big open-mouthed kiss, then says she’ll see him later and walks away. The wife glares at her husband and says, “Who the hell was that?” “Oh,” replies the husband, “she’s my mistress.”

“Well, that’s the last straw,” says the wife. “I’ve had enough, I want a divorce.” “I can understand that,” replies her husband, “but remember, if we get a divorce it will mean no more shopping trips to Paris, no more wintering in Barbados, no more summers in Tuscany, no more Infiniti or Lexus in the garage, and no more yacht club. But the decision is yours.”

Just then, a mutual friend enters the restaurant with a gorgeous babe on his arm. “Who’s that woman with Jim?” asks the wife. “That’s his mistress,” says her husband. “Ours is prettier,” she replies.

“Let me pose a question to you: In your opinion, is this about sex or money?”

It’s pretty hard to have a debate before I’ve had my morning Guinness Draught before breakfast, ok.

But I shall try (he says in a magnanimous voice).

“Green is always sexy” is probably the most common answer you’ll get. I doubt women (or men for that matter) want to have sex with someone they don’t find attractive for whatever reason (why the term “work” comes into “sex work”). In fact some may even say something truthful like this, “I’m lucky I was born pretty.”

Every woman (and some men for that matter) has a different reason for getting into the business. Cait’s 100% correct on the point about pay. Why should someone accept $40/day when they can make $1000.

What’s lost in typical American fashion is that it’s all become glamourized. When I interviewed Shiri Zinn a couple of years ago for my site, we were talking about how Marie Claire, conservative rag that it is, has made all this much more acceptable (in a Stepford wife kind of fashion).

Everything in the American media is “how”, and not “why”. “How” to leverage sex into more stuff for yourself…”how” to capitalize on your “assets”.

I’m all for people making their own choices and hopefully staying safe (which is why I’m for sex workers’ rights), but there needs to be a lot of education (which is the missing part of the equation today, mostly it’s self-learning). This is not something women should jump into because it’s been glamourized by a bunch of misogynists.

Btw, here’s an interesting article (courtesy of Livvy’s site)…
The Life of the Courtesan - A Model for the Post-Industrial Woman?

The end result dear, is we’re now a different (older) generation. Ugh!!!

A last thing…
The thing that’s wrong with alleged sex worker “advocates” showing up on 20/20 and saying they’re only doing it because they want to change people’s minds, is that they tend to be hypocritical because in a lot of cases, they’ve been servicing conservative republican types for the money; the same clients who keep funding repressive laws in the first place.

If they really want to change things, stop servicing conservatives and republicans. Let them get caught and arrested like Larry Craig and David Vitter, and be shown for the hypocrites they are.

Looking back now, I think Diane Sawyer was too easy on her with the questions she asked.

Ps; pls fix that linkover run-on above. Like I said, it’s too early in the am without a Guinness Draught. Thx hon.

larokkaku,

Thanks - yes they are tough issues. Tho the discussion had the unintended effect of bringing a lot of emotions to the surface and forcing me to confront some things within myself. I think — like with so many things — we have one attitude about something until it affects someone we care for and then we have an entirely different feeling about it. Is that hypocrisy? I don’t know… maybe it’s just human.

Maybe it has something to do with my age… that maybe I’m getting older and maybe I’m not as liberal as I thought I was? It’s complicated, kwim? Hard to get my head around.

I mean — I can understand something completely, but it doesn’t mean I have to like it.

I really haven’t been following the Texas story. It’s just creepy. I heard on one news program that one of the 16 year old girls had four children of her own, and it sickened me.

And you know — all it’s done is remind me once again that men will forever try to control the lives of women in one way or another, despite whatever illusions we (women) wrap ourselves with. No matter what the story, no matter what the subject is; a woman’s sexuality will always be at the center of it.

Thanks for the joke…

nina

lazy ichi,

Thanks for all this, sincerely. It’s all very much appreciated.

I’m just way too sad about all of this to even be able to think of something good to say in response — I need to let it go now.

I made a mistake — and now I have to live with the consequences.

Tho I will say this —

“Why should someone accept $40/day when they can make $1000. [..] What’s lost in typical American fashion is that it’s all become glamourized. [...] I’m all for people making their own choices and hopefully staying safe (which is why I’m for sex workers’ rights), but there needs to be a lot of education (which is the missing part of the equation today, mostly it’s self-learning). This is not something women should jump into because it’s been glamourized by a bunch of misogynists.”

This is our fault. We’ve created a culture where this kind of high dollar prostitution has been glamorized and where young women actually think that this is a reasonable alternative. And it isn’t just the misogynists who have glamorized this — it’s the hypersexualization of our society where we read about everyone else’s bumps and grinds on the internet, or read about some escort’s every client (trick) on some blog and then plaster the pretty faces all over the front of our newspapers and television screens and talk about johns like Spitzer spending 80 grand a year on some dumb girl from Jersey and this all somehow seems perfectly reasonable and normal to us.

No - this is not normal and this is our fault. Something has seriously gone wrong with the world when a college educated woman can earn more with her pretty face and her pussy than with her brain. Maybe it’s always been that way — we’re just way more aware of it now. It still makes me sad… and I don’t think it’s good for women either. It doesn’t give us power, it doesn’t make us stronger, it doesn’t advance equality for women and it isn’t about our claiming and owning our own sexuality either — it’s just another reminder of how the world values and sees us, despite whatever disillusionment we cloak it with. It’s still prostitution in the end and it continues to perpetuate this culture of misogyny.

Thanks for the jokes…

nina

I had planned to just leave this alone, but I feel compelled to make a couple of points here.

You admit that all of your information comes from what you’ve seen in the media, and yet, when I point out that there are many of them who’ve written books, blogs and other material where it is clear to see that they’re not the dumb bimbos you make them out to be, you respond with “I don’t believe most of what I read on the Internet.” I find it ludicrous that you’d believe the media, which have never let the facts get in the way of a good story, yet when the sex workers themselves talk, you completely shut them out and refuse to believe them.

You talk down to me as if the fact that you’ve been on the planet longer than I have gives you some insight into what it is like being a sex worker when you’ve said you’ve never done it. And I know you’ve never spoken to any. I, on the other hand, have spoken to well over 100 at great length, and yet you summarily dismiss my insight as if it were the product of a 12 year old child simply because it negates the opinion you’ve already formed about it.

How could you possibly know that 20/20’s report was “balanced,” having never been there yourself? Oh, right, because you’ve seen it in other media reports. You’ll never see the media portray the work in a positive light because they’d get flamed if they did by the wingnuts and radfems. Every single sex workers’ rights organization spoke out against the lop-sided reporting that Sawyer did on that report. Every single one of them. Tell me again why their voices (you know, the ones who actually do the work) are less credible than that of a reporter with a pre-determined agenda, and who’s never been a sex worker herself? Is it simply because they make their living using their “pussy” and, by virtue of that fact, their brain must be dysfunctional and therefore they are automatically deemed to be non-credible?

Something has seriously gone wrong with the world when a college educated woman can earn more with her pretty face and her pussy than with her brain. Maybe it’s always been that way — we’re just way more aware of it now. It still makes me sad… and I don’t think it’s good for women either. It doesn’t give us power, it doesn’t make us stronger, it doesn’t advance equality for women and it isn’t about our claiming and owning our own sexuality either — it’s just another reminder of how the world values and sees us, despite whatever disillusionment we cloak it with. It’s still prostitution in the end.

You know, with the appropriate substitution of body parts, you can say the exact same thing about athletes, can’t you? Sex has always been treated as a commodity – always (and always will be). They don’t call prostitution the world’s oldest profession for nothing.

And once again, you show little true understanding of the world of the escort. It isn’t all about sex. In fact, many escorts will tell you a huge number of their clients don’t even have sex with them. These women provide intimacy, companionship, someone to talk to (about a wide range of subjects), etc. Everyone is different, and everyone must be dealt with differently. Their brains are just as important to their work as their “pussy” is. You are the one reducing them to just the physical act of sex.

And I’m reasonably certain you’ve never spoken with the girl who was caught up with Spitzer, so I’m not sure how you can legitimately characterize her as a “dumb girl.” For all of your posturing about being non-judgmental, you come across as….judgmental. What’s so sad about this is that you don’t even see that.

I’d give you some suggestions of stuff to read about it, but I don’t think you are even remotely interested in actually exploring the real world of the escort. Your mind is made up, and I’m not going to expend the effort to try to change it any longer. We’ll just have to agree to have different opinions on this one.

I did spend some time reflecting this morning, trying to decide whether or not my opinion would be any different if sex work paid no more or less than any other work (even minimum wage), and I have come to the conclusion that it wouldn’t. As I see it, if someone wants to use their physical attributes, regardless of what those are, to earn a living, then I see nothing wrong with it whatsoever. Just because one person uses their arms (i.e., a Red Sox player) and another uses her pussy, doesn’t make one better or lesser than the other in my estimation. We all make choices in life, and just because someone else’s view of sexuality and how it should be used is different than yours or mine doesn’t mean their choice is any less deserving of respect than anyone else’s.

Caitlain,

Your points are all fair and valid — and you’re right, and I’m sorry. I wish that I had handled this differently with you.

I just wasn’t mentally prepared to read and ‘know’ certain things… I thought I was… but, it’s hard when you care about what happens to the person in question to detach the emotions. It is for me anyway…

I hope in time you can understand that and realize that there was no malice or judgment intended.

We each have strong opinions, formed by our own experience and life context — but I think we’ve both made too many assumptions at this point and it’s probably best for me to remain quiet now. I don’t seek or want an argument with you.

I do hear you, okay? And I do understand. And while I cannot and still do not agree with everything you’ve said — I do respect it, and you. And I’m truly sorry that this got so personal — that was my fault, not yours, and I’m sorry for that. I’ve been in tears over this since late yesterday and right now I just want to be quiet and think about things…

xoxo,
nina

just spent over an hour
trying to craft a comment here
(so as not to leave the impression
I thought it merely a joking matter),
but now that I’m back to post,
I think it’s best to humbly defer
to your own graciousness,
and sense of repose.

Caitlain,

Understanding and agreeing are two different things. Maybe Nina can’t speak to some these things, but I can at length.

Wanna talk to Amanda Brooks, the author, she’s an acquaintance of mine for 3-4 years now . How about Holly B., she has a PhD and she’s a fierce advocate of this area; she’s also an acquaintance of mine. As are quite a few others. And not in the professional sense either.

I don’t know who you’ve talked to, but you can count on this, that there are as many hustlers out there as there are sincere people who like Amanda and Holly are working for a fair and even system and education.

This should never be a career goal for young women. They should have a plan when they start, what they want to make, and then get out. Otherwise it gets to be a lifestyle. And those people usually end badly.

But don’t be fooled by someone whose words say one thing and their actions say another even if they’re on a tv interview and saying all the right things. You don’t have the whole picture or the background.

I think we’re in the same camp, and we can learn from each other, but you also need to be aware that there are some people out there who are eloquent, but have always tended to seek the spotlight for their own ends under the guise of advocating for the “sisterhood”, while saying they’ve wanted to avoid publicity of any kind in the past. People like this end up hurting things more than helping.

Ok, I’ve had my beer now. And I’m ready to go.

Lazy Ichi, I’ve actually had several, lengthy conversations with Amanda. Ask her if she’s gotten her Crackberry yet.

This should never be a career goal for young women. They should have a plan when they start, what they want to make, and then get out. Otherwise it gets to be a lifestyle. And those people usually end badly.

I don’t disagree with that at all. I have never intended to suggest that this should be a “career” for anyone.

But don’t be fooled by someone whose words say one thing and their actions say another even if they’re on a tv interview and saying all the right things. You don’t have the whole picture or the background.

I’m guessing you missed the part about my interviews with over 100 sex workers? That was before the TV interview, which had nothing to do with my opinions, actually.

Have another beer for me.

Nina, we’ll talk later. Thank you. I, too, am sorry for the way I’ve come off. <3

larokkaku,

Sometimes the only way to win is not to fight. Thanks…

nina

“Nina, we’ll talk later. Thank you. I, too, am sorry for the way I’ve come off. <3″

xoxo,
nina

LOL! Nina, I can speak three languages, and read three others. Sadly, Japanese isn’t one of them.

I think it says, “I want to throw you down and do you right here.” Is that close? :p <3

Caitiebelle,

lmao! You’re such a capable little slut aren’t you??

Yes dearest, that’s exactly what it says!

Mwah!

xoxo,
nina

[...] I also want to say something about this post and thread here. [...]

This is much better you two
Pretty obvious to everyone you both care about each other

Pete,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me(us).

nina

Seriously. WTF just happened here? Spend all that time getting the two participants primed for a knock-down, drag-out with shrimp forks, Louboutins, La Perla, and jello wrestling.

Now….

Sniff sniff ;(

Something is seriously effing wrong with this world when a good effort like that goes to waste.

I guess I’ll go have to add some effing entries on my effing blog now to distract me from this effing disappointment.

I’ll remember this Lazy Geisha.

“I’ll remember this Lazy Geisha.”

lmao! I bet you will!

Tho I’ll wear my Louboutins and La Perla panties anytime you like!

There, feel better now?

What can I say? Catfights are catfights.

nina

[...] that the only person I can make that choice for is myself.  While we did have a bit of a catfight here over this subject – in retrospect I think I let my own personal feelings get in the way of my [...]