Somehow I kind of missed the earlier discussion (or rather, the ‘catfight’) on this subject. But after reading this post I wanted to share some of my thoughts.

Living in the Netherlands, I kinda grew up knowing that we have certain liberties in my country that others countries don’t have. It’s not something you can easily miss. Hell, one of our first high school trips was to Amsterdam - I think I was thirteen at the time - and the tour route took us straight through the red light district! It’s debatable wether it’s suitable to subject children of that age to a neighbourhood like that, and even though I still believe it was by accident, it does give you an idea of how open we are about things like that.

And it’s not just prostitution. Our drug policy is probably the most widely known example of the kind of freedom we enjoy. Before I continue, I’d like to point out that I’ve never gone to a prositute / used an escort service, nor have I ever used any drugs besides smoking marijuana one or two times. But I still think it benefits me that others have the freedom to do these things if they like.

The following argument has undoubtedly been mentioned millions of times (probably even in the other post/discussion), but it has to be said: it’s all about control. The fact that prostitution and marijuana are legal here (though, the latter is kind of complicated) means that you can start a legitimate business in either of those two areas. I won’t say that every brothel, escort service or coffeeshop operates within the confines of the law. There are exceptions, especially when it comes to prostitution. There are obviously people out there who exploit women, even here where prostitution is legalized. I know I don’t have any statistics right now to back this up, but I’m willing to bet there’s a lot less of that going on here purely because - if you follow strict rules - prostitution is legal. Prostitution is going to happen wether it’s legal or not: the best thing you can do is make sure the women who *want* to sell their bodies for money have the same rights as any other paid worker. Obviously the rules have to be enforced, but it’s pretty clear to me that’s being done here. Only a few months ago a large number of establishments in Amsterdam were shut down because of (suspected?) criminal activity and whatnot.

The same goes for the other things like drugs. I really believe the distinction our country has made between hard drugs and soft drugs is the best approach to tackle this subject. Marijuana is going to be smoked, wether it’s legal or not. Sure, it’s so much easier to come by when it’s legal. But I believe it’s up to each and every one of us to decide for ourselves if we want to use it or not. Hard drugs is a different thing though - and personally I don’t approve of people using things like XTC. Those kind of drugs are most certainly illegal here, but even then there are things you can do to help prevent abuse. In the past, large parties offered guests the option to have their drugs checked/tested to make sure it’s (reasonably) safe to use them. This isn’t allowed anymore, and even though there’s a strict anti-drug policy at parties like that, you can bet that some people are still going to use stuff. That doesn’t mean hard drugs should be legalized, but you can still try to prevent abuse. Scare tactics alone aren’t going to help.

My apologies for that little detour. I realize the subject at hand was prostitution, but I wanted to show the benefits of legalizing something that is similarly controversial.

Hmm, I think I actually had more to say on this subject, but seeing as it’s 01:45 already and I’m really tired (with may 1st being my birthday and all) I think it’s best if I leave it at this and go get some sleep I hope my comments were of some ‘use’; even if you don’t agree with me I hope you can appreciate I wanted to share my, somewhat chaotic, thoughts.

Michiel

The basic reason is because, once the woman charges for the service, that puts her in control of the encounter, and the patriarchy can’t allow that. It is that simple. If it is done without charge, then the man is the one who’s in charge, at least from a theoretical point of view.

Ultimately, she wasn’t charged with anything directly related to prostitution. She was charged with using the mails to carry out or further an illegal enterprise (to wit, prostitution). So, by virtue of the conviction of that crime, they’ve determined that she was guilty of promoting prostitution.

You are certainly right about the double standard here. Not a single client was called to testify, yet several of the women who worked for her were called and forced to reveal graphic, intimate details of the encounters they had with clients. I was sickened at that, and I am devastated that she lost her life over it. One of the women who worked for her also committed suicide a few weeks ago in response to being outed.

We have to hope that this might lead to the discussion you mention. Sadly, though, we know that it won’t. And we’ll await the next prosecution of the woman, and the ignoring of the client’s role.

Thanks Nina. I thought my rage fatigue was gonna get me down for a moment. I can always count on you for a lift, ok.

Let’s see, another casualty in the Morality War (funded by the likes of Blackwater and Amway).

Like I said before, the best way to change things is for the escorts to stop providing favors for Conservatives and Republicans who continue to fund and make the laws. If they’d take a stand, those people would have to go home to their frigid wives.

It also makes me wonder about the celebrity sex worker advocates. How many of them will we hear from if there’s no interviews or publicity?

What’s amusing is they tend to be among the biggest hypocrites since a lot of them were taking their money under the table, in the envelopes, etc from the same people they’re complaining about. They’re not whores for the transaction; it’s that their beliefs & values are for sale. Remember that next time someone’s waving their flag.

Now, I’m going to read the General’s report on Helmet Tips -The Great “Stamina” Myth. Should be interesting schtuff. Y’know.

Btw, I don’t know if I was the only one that saw it, but there was a great big lightbulb in the Eastern sky today, somewheres around Boston methinks.

Michiel,

Well let me wish you a belated Happy Birthday!

I hope you enjoyed your day!

Well — thanks so much for sharing all of this with me. I think The Netherlands are a great example of how societies should function — on so many levels — and thank you for also mentioning your country’s drug policies. I’ve read a number things and have seen several documentaries about how The Netherlands has dealt with heroin addiction and how drug addiction is treated as a disease rather than a crime. The United States has millions of people locked away in prisons for victimless drug crimes — which in turn feeds into a private prison industry which in some cases becomes the cash cow for some starving municipality where the factory closed down.

But back to prostitution: I read an article recently about those Red Light District closings, and basically it was because some Eastern European organized crime syndicates had moved into the business and who were truly exploiting the girls working there.

This is still a complicated issue tho — I mean, of course there may be some women who do make the choice to become an escort and who can earn a good living taking dates with a more sophisticated clientele — who will likely demand a more educated and sophisticated women to accompany them, and then of course, there’s the sex. But as I pointed out — women have done this since the beginning of time, shouldn’t we be able to make some money doing it? I don’t know… it’s still complicated.

What I realized is that it’s very much like the geisha who sells her services in conversation and entertainment to well heeled gentlemen — and while there isn’t sex involved — the flow of logic is essentially the same.

What does trouble me is the lower end of the economic spectrum here, where many women are outright exploited and controlled by pimps as property, or the women and children worldwide who are forced into lives of sexual slavery — I think it’s important to make distinctions, but do we then become hypocrites by saying one is okay but not the other? In some cases yes, I think so. But as I said, it’s complicated.

My personal opinion is that it should be legalized and decriminalized, and regulated. Take the criminal element out of the equation and many of these problems would disappear, maybe. Same for the drug policies of this country.

Unfortunately, that kind of political will does not exist here to make that happen.

Thanks!

nina

Caitlain,

“The basic reason is because, once the woman charges for the service, that puts her in control of the encounter, and the patriarchy can’t allow that. It is that simple. If it is done without charge, then the man is the one who’s in charge, at least from a theoretical point of view.”

That’s a great point. If we examine the foundations of our society and our laws, women were always viewed as second class citizens, and control of our sexuality was seen as something under the purview of men. When a woman takes that control back — and we can see evidence of this in other areas to, the patriarchy fights back.

If we think about what really allowed us to take that control back: the right to choose, birth control pills, and the potential to earn by selling ourselves and controlling when and how and who we have sex with — we can understand why a male dominated society has tried to rig the game against us.

I’ve already been reading conspiracy theories that these “suicides” were not really suicides — that some of these women were silenced to protect the men in power from embarrassment. I’m not sure if I buy into that one, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were true.

There is a double standard, and there always has been where our lives and rights and choices are concerned.

I’m deeply saddened that any woman had to lose her life because society at large would not accept her and her choices. And the hypocrisy here is revolting. Why do the clients (almost always men) never pay any sort of real price for their choices? I mean, okay, Spitzer had to step down from his elected position — but that’s nothing compared to the kind of scrutiny “Kristen” endured.

The judiciary uses the convenient tactic of RICO statutes and financial laws to entrap and prosecute these women as organized crime — and we have to be honest and accept that organized crime has a hand in prostitution — but I find such tactics to be despicable and wrong headed. It’s still all about the sex isn’t it?

Thanks hon,

nina

Lazy Ichi, Commander in Chief,

Nice promotion! lmao!

“Btw, I don’t know if I was the only one that saw it, but there was a great big lightbulb in the Eastern sky today, somewheres around Boston methinks.”

Is that what that was?

Well — a sign of maturity is admitting that you might be wrong about something and accepting that there are other points of view worth considering.

That’s an interesting perspective that escorts should stop servicing members of the self appointed morality police — the problem with that is that the Democrats aren’t any better. Tho you’re quite right in that it’s often the Republicans who are the biggest hypocrites in this arena.

I think it’s worth examining why men seek the services of a prostitute to begin with — and while I think the primary motivator is sex, I think much, much more goes into it. I think much of this also comes back to these men, who tend to be older and accomplished in their lives, wanting to tap into that stream of feminine sexual energy. In many cases perhaps they’ve ceased to have this kind of relationship with their wives, or perhaps they have sexual needs they feel unable to approach their wives with. As a wife I can’t say I like that, but I do understand it. You know, we tend to get the short end of the stick as we get older, where men get “distinguished” and can still pursue younger women. An old woman is an old woman no matter how you look at it — that’s my fear and every other married woman’s fear, and it’s why many of us resent these young girls. But they’ll get older one day too, kwim?

But — it’s still complicated!

Thanks sweetie,

nina

What a sad story……..This woman had already spent a year or so locked up in some hell hole for the same thing I think? I do hope that her little black book with all the names,dates,telephone numbers ect becomes public. It needs to be public otherwise some scummy pol with have it burnt or something. This country is so fucked up……. It makes just sick that this poor womans mother had to find her hanging in the shed. It makes me very sad. Crime is a huge business, prisons are big money makers and we just continue to build, so we can fill them. Damm I didn’t mean to rave Nina, but things like this just make me ill.I think we have one of the most crooked corrupt bunch of people in Washington. I think I have read or heard this many times “The next revolution won’t be on TV”. Richard

There’s a film playing the megaplexes now called “Deception”
which apparently is set in the world of high-end escort services.
Haven’t seen it, but have read a few reviews (guess it doesn’t break
any new ground in the narrative sense: it’s predictable), and in one of them this bit of dialogue was reported: a woman (Charlotte Rampling, of course) is asked why women get into this line of work, to which she replies: “For the same reason as the men: intimacy without the intricacy.”

That’s a very interesting line; probably more truth there than not.

I have no real insights here, but I do have a couple of questions:

When Caitlain writes than women are in control because they charge,
I can see her point, but don’t you imagine the client also feels like
he’s “in charge,” as well, simply because he’s paying for the services?

This question is related in a way to your observation, Nina, that women, as they age, get “the short end of the stick” in our culture (quick aside: that’s a funny idiom to use in this context), and that men who seek these services are perhaps only seeking to tap into youthful female sexual energy. That may very well be, but…might it not also be true that these older men have not truly negotiated the “intricacies” of the female sexual energy of their older partners, which, in fact, may be far more powerful and complex than that of younger women, and have, instead, opted to “control” - and simplify - their sexual exchanges simply by paying for them?

And I have no clue whatsoever how we deal with the hypocrisy.
It seems pandemic in a world where men make all the rules.
One truly wonders sometimes what it would be like if women did.
Don’t imagine it could be any worse at all. Not at all.

Richard,

Yes — you’re correct, she did have a criminal record, and I believe for the same thing. I’ll have to check.

I remember when the DC ring was broken up and when Palfrey said that she was going to make telephone numbers and her black book public — and at the time she took a lot of incoming flak from people like Heidi Fleiss (the hollywood madam) — who when she was arrested, she protected her clients and went to prison. Fleiss basically called Palfrey out for not keeping her mouth shut — and while to a certain point I can understand that — on a totally different level I’m left feeling again; why should only the women pay a price? Palfrey was facing possibly 8 years in prison, and as I wrote, David Vitter made some bullshit apology and is walking around free. Also the people who were involved in running The Emperor Club which involved Spitzer are the only ones who will likely face prosecution — not Spitzer.

So, was Palfrey right? Hard to say I think. I can see both sides.

The problem is that things like prostitution are criminalized to begin with. If we take the crime and underground aspect out of it, then perhaps these things wouldn’t happen.

Thanks hon,

nina

larokkaku,

Hmmm. I’m not familiar with that film, but I’m struck by that line of dialog;

“intimacy without the intricacy”

I can’t say that I buy into that one. I think it tends to be more about the money than intimacy. Women don’t necessarily have a hard time finding guys who want to screw us without strings, so I don’t know if I buy into the idea that a woman would choose to become a sex worker for anything associated with intimacy. Sounds to me like Hollywood’s sensationalized and glamorized version of reality.

As to your question about control? I think control is an illusion — and in almost every but the most extreme situations — a woman is always in control of the sex act. We can say no at any point in time and if the guy doesn’t stop it becomes rape. But I see your point that if a man is paying a woman for sex; like for a specific sex act (oral, anal, etc.) he may have the illusion of control. I mean, he is getting exactly what he’s paid for, right? But it’s still the woman’s decision as to what she agrees to and for what price, so control again is in the hands of the woman, as it always is.

Oh I think you may have a point about the intricacies of navigating the currents of feminine sexual energy. And perhaps men seek out younger women, or younger prostitutes because it represents what they perceive as an easier situation. As we (women) get older, we tend to learn how to manage our men a little better (hate to put it that way!) but to make the point, there are things an older woman may know about men that a younger girl may not. That’s true.

Society isn’t typically as kind to women as we get older — and as I said, men get “distinguished” — women get old. lmao! Our breasts sag, our ass spreads, we loses body tone and bone mass, we stop making enough estrogen so we don’t enjoy sex as much or even have as much of a sex drive, and we hit menopause and everything changes. Whereas guys take that little blue pill and can hang with the twenty year olds.

(which is why we need to take care of ourselves and exercise… but time is time, we’re still getting old, kwim? And you’ll be distinguished..)

We typically hit our sexual peak into our 30’s, often after we’re married and have kids and can’t really explore everything we want to because of our life situations.

It ain’t easy being a girl babe…

I don’t know what we do about the hypocrisy either, but I think we need to start doing something.

nina

I’m going to skip any comment about the moral value of prostitution, because I’m just not knowledgeable enough about the subject. Too complex for little ol’ me.

There is a subject I’m concerned with:

Elliot Spitzer. Or more to the point, how he was caught. The US Government discovered he was withdrawing large amounts of cash from his accounts in a check related to the PATRIOT act…you know, about terrorism. They then busted Spitzer for prostitution. They’re turning the legal system into a tool for political assassination.

There was another point I had, but I forgot it.

hapes,

Oh that’s a good point. Anyone who thinks that Spitzer wasn’t a target of political assassination is kidding themselves. The problem is that a lot of women got hurt in the end. We’re the disposable ones here.

I’ve tried to remove the morality aspect out of the discussion of prostitution because I don’t believe that this is a moral issue. I never have. I’ve had issues about how it impacts the lives of women, but not so much about it’s moral implications for society.

People are going to have sex, kwim? And we need to keep our own morality out of everyone else’s sex life.

nina

agree with you, actually, about the line
“intimacy without the intricacy.”

some guy wrote it, afterall.

as my wife never ceases to remind me,
these types of films almost always relfect
some guy’s fantasy about how women behave.

she’s also quick to point out that many of these films,
plays, and stories that more often than not depict
a woman striking out in revenge are also mostly fantasy,
probably born from some twisted sense of male guilt.
“in reality, we almost always blame ourselves,” she says,
“and we are the ones who ususally get hurt.”

p.s.
and as to “sexual peaks,”
aren’t we guys s’posed to hit ours at about 16?

what does that make all the rest of it, then -
manic desperation? wishful thinking?
or maybe rather “wishful fucking.”

larokkaku,

“in reality, we almost always blame ourselves,” she says,
“and we are the ones who ususally get hurt.”

MmmHmm. Yes, she’s exactly right.

There’s a lot of content out there in which depicts women in very unrealistic ways. It’s a real problem.

nina

larokkaku,

Well — Dr. Caitiebelle is the resident sexpert around here — but guys usually hit their sexual peak around 18-20 and women typically peak somewhere around 35. But you know… it’s a fun ride either way (for a while!)

Tho I have a girlfriend who dates younger guys. It gives her a thrill. She’s quite the cougar! My husband is only a couple of years older than me so we fit together pretty well — tho if I were single again… hmmmm, I’d have to think about that!

nina

Don’t kid yourself Nina. If you see me with my arms around an older woman, you know I’m only holding her for the police.

Are you sure she hung herself?

When Caitlain writes than women are in control because they charge, I can see her point, but don’t you imagine the client also feels like he’s “in charge,” as well, simply because he’s paying for the services?

LOL! Nina addressed this, but I did want to say it is obvious you’ve never paid an escort for sex.

In fact, there’s one school of thought that says one reason men pay for the services of an escort is to allow himself to forego the need to be in control. And that applies not just to control during sex, but it refers more to the desire to rid himself of the control he has to exert during the normal day-to-day existence. Being with an escort allows him to relinquish that control to her for that period of time. Of course, this is a generalization, but I think you get the idea.

Lazy Ichi,

“Don’t kid yourself Nina. If you see me with my arms around an older woman, you know I’m only holding her for the police.”

Or helping her cross the street?

Fucking men suck! lmao!

Keep it up IMofM…. keep it up…

Mwah!

nina

David,

Nope. I don’t. I only know what’s been reported and it’s been reported that she hung herself.

nina

caitlain,

point well taken.
(jean genet got at this pretty well in the 50’s with The Balcony. )
this is probably one of those times
when I should have just kept my keyboard shut - STKU!

Caitiebelle,

“In fact, there’s one school of thought that says one reason men pay for the services of an escort is to allow himself to forego the need to be in control. And that applies not just to control during sex, but it refers more to the desire to rid himself of the control he has to exert during the normal day-to-day existence. Being with an escort allows him to relinquish that control to her for that period of time. Of course, this is a generalization, but I think you get the idea.”

Hmmm, that’s interesting. Do you think it comes down to something as simple as removing the pressure from the situation? Where the guy “knows” that he’s going to have sex and isn’t going to have to try and negotiate that or put his moves on just to get a woman into bed? I mean, yes, he’s paying for that — but is it that simple do you think?

Even in marriage or committed situations, very often it’s the man who has to initiate sex, and even tho two people may be a couple, I think that might be a lot of pressure on a man? Maybe?

I mean, in my marriage I’d have to say that we each initiate sex about the same amount, but probably more him than me if I thought about it. This is just something I’ve never considered… that it might be something as simple as that?

nina

larokkaku,

I’ve added a link to your comment. Not everyone may be familiar with Genet.

And No — your keyboard is always welcome here. Always.

Just because you’ve never paid an escort for sex doesn’t invalidate your views or opinions. I’ve never been paid FOR sex and look at me running my mouth!

nina

well, I may be wrong, again
but let me give it a good-natured try anyway…

one of the things I think caitlain is saying is that many men
in distinguished, high pressure positions of authority,
actually relish the opportunity to relinquish all responsibility for a while,
and are more than willing to pay an escort to provide that respite for them.

Do you think it comes down to something as simple as removing the pressure from the situation?

Exactly. As you also suggested, it is usually the man who initiates sex, even in (especially in) long-term relationships. Using the services of an escort puts him in a position where he knows he’s going to get laid and eliminates the need for all of the negotiation and positioning and whatnot, which oftentimes isn’t successful. For men who spend a lot of time on the road or are otherwise too busy with work, life, etc., they just don’t have the time (or the desire) to go through those negotiations when there is a high likelihood of failure. And, of course, quite often, there simply is no sex in long term relationships any longer. The guy could harass the wife about it, but that is counterproductive as well. And then there’s the guys who want to try activities their partner won’t do, or they are afraid to even bring up to their partner.

And thanks for that link to Genet. I, too, was not familiar with that work.

larokkaku,

“one of the things I think caitlain is saying is that many men
in distinguished, high pressure positions of authority,actually relish the opportunity to relinquish all responsibility for a while,and are more than willing to pay an escort to provide that respite for them.”

Hmmm — that’s an interesting perspective. I mean, it’s hard for me to put myself in that male mindset — but I imagine that being with an escort would satisfy many needs beyond sex — as I wrote in comment #6 to Lazy Ichi; that the primary motivator may in fact be sex, perhaps the encounter is satisfying a host of other psychological needs? Even something as basic as feeling virile around an energetic young woman? To truly tap into that running stream of intense feminine sexual energy?

So, perhaps there’s a lot more to this than simply sex for money.

Interesting…

nina

Caitlain,

Which actually brings us back full circle to where we started — it’s an issue of control; where we control the situation and occurrence of the sex act.

If we think about dating or simple male/female dynamics — and I’ve been off the dating market for a little while so my skills are a bit rusty (more old lady humor) — but I still get hit on quite a bit when I go out dancing and in everyday life situations, tho I know women are much more aggressive now than they were when I was in my “prime” dating period. (good lord… I’m not even 40 and I sound like I’m ready for the retirement home… see what marriage does?? lol)

That dynamic of tension also exists in a marriage or committed male/female situation. Sex may be expected, but it isn’t assured, kwim? I mean, sure, there may be times when a woman is in the mood and the man isn’t (tho rarer I think… I mean, I think I can count on one hand the times when I’ve wanted to and my husband wasn’t up for it… ) — so it’s still a woman’s choice about whether or not to accept the offer of sex from her mate, and it’s usually a male initiated process — tho as I said in my own situation, we’re close to even there.

But I think my point is, and it also goes back to everything I’ve written about men competing for feminine sexual energy, is that it usually falls on the man to approach a woman for sex — and then we’re in the position to weigh the options — (are we attracted to him, does his pheromone signature match our own, are we sexually interested in him) and everything else which goes into our pair bonding process — but the ultimate and final point here, we are always in control of whether or not sex happens — with the exception of rape or some other extreme situation which is outside of the context of this conversation.

So interesting…

Thanks babes!

Mwah!

nina

Caitlain,

Another thought; and one you also may have insight on:

With Lisa? Everything just happens in a totally organic spontaneous kind of way. There are none of these “sexual tension” dynamics like there are between males and females. It just happens like we both just expect it to happen without any real question or discussion about it… it’s just completely different. Has that been your experience as well?

nina

But I think my point is, and it also goes back to everything I’ve written about men competing for feminine sexual energy, is that it usually falls on the man to approach a woman for sex — and then we’re in the position to weigh the options

Right. And it is really no different in the present situation, with the singular exception that the business transaction guarantees success (generally speaking), thereby achieving an equilibrium that satisfies both’s needs.

With Lisa? Everything just happens in a totally organic spontaneous kind of way. There are none of these “sexual tension” dynamics like there are between males and females. It just happens like we both just expect it to happen without any real question or discussion about it… it’s just completely different. Has that been your experience as well?

Very much so. I’ve written about the differences between having sex with a guy and having sex with another woman, and one of the points I’ve made is that sex with a woman occurs on an entirely different emotional plane than sex with a guy, and there is no “power struggle” that occurs (again, generally speaking). It is much more of a “co-equal” process than the negotiated power context that occurs between a man and a woman.

I don’t use the term “sexual tension dynamics” and prefer to use “power struggle” because there is indeed sexual tension dynamics between two women - they just play out differently. I’d be happy to demonstrate!

Caitlain,

“Right. And it is really no different in the present situation, with the singular exception that the business transaction guarantees success (generally speaking), thereby achieving an equilibrium that satisfies both’s needs.”

I understand. And yes, of course we’re talking in generalized terms and examples. There’s always an exception for everything. But I thank you for helping me ‘catch up’ to some of these ideas and for your vast input and knowledge on the subject. I have no problem admitting my ignorance here (in the literal definition of the word) — but I do appreciate the benefit and value of your research into the topic.

I think too — we need to remember that sex is indeed a ‘human need’ and there’s a bottomless depth of psychological needs and factors which go into developing and forming, and satisfying those needs.

xoxo,
nina

Caitiebelle,

“I’d be happy to demonstrate!”

Mmmmm…. have a number in mind perhaps?

“Very much so. I’ve written about the differences between having sex with a guy and having sex with another woman, and one of the points I’ve made is that sex with a woman occurs on an entirely different emotional plane than sex with a guy, and there is no “power struggle” that occurs (again, generally speaking). It is much more of a “co-equal” process than the negotiated power context that occurs between a man and a woman.

I don’t use the term “sexual tension dynamics” and and prefer to use “power struggle” because there is indeed sexual tension dynamics between two women - they just play out differently.”

See — this reinforces much of what I’ve written too, especially here, but I feel as tho I need to write more. My biggest problem is that I don’t have enough people in my life with whom I can discuss the intricacies of the Sapphic sexual experience. I’m kind of just following my nose here a bit and I go with makes sense to me on a purely emotional level. And even my relationship with Lisa has evolved over time as I’ve discussed with you — so it isn’t like I’m some vast repository of knowledge there either. I only have my experiences to go on.

But I too see it in terms of sexual tension dynamics (and I appreciate the distinction between that phrase and the phrase power struggle — the latter is a much better way to describe the m/f dynamic, thank you) — which are very present in my relationship with Lisa and exist on a much different level than any of the sexual experiences I’ve ever had with a man. Tho Lisa is not the only woman I’ve been with, she’s the most significant to me and my life.

I think I need to write more about this topic specifically… because I see so much beauty in these things and they satisfy so many “other” sexual and psychological needs for us.

The phrase: “existing on an entirely different emotional plane than sex with a guy” — is something I cannot stress enough agreement for. It’s the perfect way to describe it.

Mwah!

xoxo,
nina

Hi,

Thank you for your response and birthday wishes! And yes, I had a lovely day

Reading through all of these comments I think that all the most important arguments have already been made. Though, I’d like to mention that I think you’re absolutely right in saying that it’s still a very complicated situation.

I kind of oversimplified prostitution in my first reply: it’s a very delicate matter and there’s no easy answer. I still believe legalizing it will make for better control and certainly less crime, but there’s no doubt that, even in countries like mine, there are still situations in which women are being exploited. Legalizing prostitution is not going to magically solve all the problems, but it will reduce them significantly.

As for the whole ethics about a woman selling her body: that’s even more complicated. It’s obviously wrong if someone is forced into the business through either a crime syndicate or general lack of wealth. Though, if a woman, on her own free will, chooses to be a prostitute, we don’t have the right to stop them. If it’s not legal, it’s going to happen (under much worse circumstances) anyway.

As a final thought, I’d like to share a little story that just sprang to mind. A couple of years ago, a friend of mine went to a prostitute. He was actually quite young at the time, but even considering his age he thought he thought his chances of ever having a girlfriend again (let alone sex) were very slim. I think there was more to it, but he told me this was the primary reason for going to a prostitute.

Afterwards, he told me he enjoyed the experience. I was quick to judge him: I told him I didn’t agree with his decision, and especially not his reasons for going in the first place.

But guess what? Only two weeks later he met his present girlfriend. They’ve been together for quite some time now, and they’re truly happy together. He hasn’t really said it out loud, but I just *know* that he now regrets going to a prostitute. What he was looking for was to have a connection with someone; to find someone who *wanted* to be intimate with him. Instead, he had sex with someone who wouldn’t have done so if there wasn’t any money involved.

After this all happened I found myself wondering if he’d have gone to a prostitute if it hadn’t been legal in his country (Belgium). I also wondered about my own hypocrisy: if I approve of this being legal, how can I detest the people that actually go to them? Or worse yet, do I only detest people who pay for sex if they are my friends? I don’t have an answer, yet…

Michiel

Cue the Wild Kingdom music..Marlin and Jim…

Poor poor poor penguin

And this one…just for the hell of it, and it’s good to be king!

Interesting article . . . SITPS.org: A Labor Day Call to Johns.

I can agree with some points, but I can’t completely be sympathetic with sex workers either, but I do think people should be free to make their own choices as long as they’re not endangering anyone else or their health (it’s that “pursuit of happiness” thing from the Constitution). Afterall, they do make a choice here, and they should know and understand the risks that come with the territory (arrest, diseases [some which are permanent & treatable but uncurable], public outing, stigma, etc); if they don’t understand all that, then they probably shouldn’t be in it.

While men still get roasted for committing adultery or running off with the babysitter (ala Joe Piscopo or Woody Allen with his stepdaughter), it still has less stigma attached than paying cash for sex.

And from the I can’t make this shit up file…
Got a letter today from a company I used to work for and still have 3/4 of a share of stick with (heh heh heh), which was mailed to my old address. What did it say? it was a letter notifying me of my change of address along with my new address included inside in the body of the letter. Even more funny is who the company is.

Music today…
Gerald Fried - “Lament for a Trapped Spy”

Michiel,

I’m happy to hear that you enjoyed your birthday!

Well — yes, it is complicated. People have strong opinions on all sides of this, but what I’ve come to understand is that it’s very hard to form a good opinion (as a woman) unless you’ve been in that situation for yourself. Keeping an open mind here is what’s necessary I think.

Legalizing prostitution won’t make all the problems go away — you’re absolutely correct. But perhaps it will prevent women from being pushed to the point of suicide or having to live with the shame or hide in the shadows. There is the hypocrisy. We’re perfectly fine with a woman meeting a man for a date and even sleeping with him if she so chooses. So why should we recoil from the fact that he pays her? This is what I’ve begun to have a hard time reconciling.

Then again there are the women who have no other choices in this world and whose only thing of value is their sexuality. This is where pimps and hustlers come into play and where it becomes exploitation. There are many shades of grey here I think.

It’s interesting that your friend would feel regret — perhaps because his reasons for seeking out a prostitute were for as you said “looking for a connection with someone” — that emotional connection which comes from sharing yourself and your sexuality with someone isn’t typically found with someone you’re paying to have sex with you — I wouldn’t think. Humans tend to form deep emotional attachments and bonds thru the sex act — but many people are able to disconnect that and simply enjoy the sex act without that emotional investment.

What I’ve found is that we’re all different — and even tho now I say that I would have a hard time separating the physical from the emotional — at one point in my life, I think I did, and could.

Ultimately I don’t think it’s ever good to judge someone else’s choices, and I don’t believe it’s right to detest someone for the choices they make. We’re all capable of anything under the right circumstances I think — and while as a society there are many things which are worthy of our disgust and utter contempt — I’m not at all convinced that prostitution should be one of them. I don’t think it meets the bar for horrible things humans do to one another.

Thanks much,

nina

Lazy “Darwin” Ichi,

LMAO! I don’t think I’ve laughed this hard in a long time! wtf??? lol!

“Seal rapes penguin… story at 11″

Oh you’re cute allright… but not that cute!

nina

Lazy Ichi, non-celebrity,

Okay — I’ll bite. This is why I don’t read many blogs tho…

This is absurd and ridiculous. Sorry — I just don’t see the AFL-CIO including prostitutes in the membership. Collecting dues might present a problem.

See — it’s things like this which get in the way of having a serious discussion about changing the laws which have been put in place which essentially only serve to legislate morality. Most escorts are never prosecuted for “prostitution” — they’re prosecuted for tax evasion, money laundering, RICO statutes, and the escorts themselves usually plea out or make a deal to flip on the guys running the operation, because the government is much more interested in prosecuting those cases than one which is nearly impossible to get a conviction on — and aside from the streetwalker variety hooker who might get hassled by the cops; your high end escort has more to be concerned with from the organized crime elements which may run whatever escort service she works for, unless she’s independent. Many of these organized crime operations are just a classier version of the street pimp — not a good situation for working girls. Legalized brothels or independent escorts do much, much better.

And in the true entrepreneurial spirit of America — we don’t need to unionize prostitution. An escort should be able to make her money, do her business and live her life.

Sorry — I just don’t see this in terms of making sex workers a special interest group which requires special protections. We all have sex. Some of us charge for that. So what?

Where the law needs to be changed in my opinion is in decriminalizing prostitution and removing the underground and illicit aspects of the business side of things — which is what encourages the mob and other unsavory characters like pimps to exploit women. At least if prostitution were legal (as it is in Nevada) — women could do this work without fear. They’d be in a safe environment, there would be better screening of clients, and there would be access to health services and counseling should it be required.

And you’re quite correct — if sex workers don’t understand the dangers as they exist right now, then they probably shouldn’t be doing this.

I’m open to having the conversation about changing the laws — but this isn’t about “rights”. I mean, come on! You need someone to state in public that you have the right to fuck? If you say so.

And a call to “Johns”? Um… yeah…

As I said — people are rarely prosecuted for prostitution or even misdemeanor solicitation. It happens — but usually on the lower end of the spectrum. It’s an easy collar for vice cops. They set up a sting and nab a few Johns for soliciting a prostitute, fine them 100 bucks and send them on their way — and usually all it does is wind up embarrassing some white suburban married guy looking for a 50 dollar blowjob on a Friday night. This is not the same thing or even the same problem.

(well, add someone else to the list of people I’ve now pissed off on the interwebs! lmao!)

Thanks for getting me into trouble Ichi… you damn dirty ape… lmao!

Mwah!

xoxo,
nina

Lazy Ichi,

Music today: Don and Sherri off Asa Breed by Matthew Dear

nina