Music today: Don and Sherri off Asa Breed by Matthew Dear

nina

Okay — I’ll bite. This is why I don’t read many blogs tho…

This is absurd and ridiculous. Sorry — I just don’t see the AFL-CIO including prostitutes in the membership. Collecting dues might present a problem.

See — it’s things like this which get in the way of having a serious discussion about changing the laws which have been put in place which essentially only serve to legislate morality. Most escorts are never prosecuted for “prostitution” — they’re prosecuted for tax evasion, money laundering, RICO statutes, and the escorts themselves usually plea out or make a deal to flip on the guys running the operation, because the government is much more interested in prosecuting those cases than one which is nearly impossible to get a conviction on — and aside from the streetwalker variety hooker who might get hassled by the cops; your high end escort has more to be concerned with from the organized crime elements which may run whatever escort service she works for, unless she’s independent. Many of these organized crime operations are just a classier version of the street pimp — not a good situation for working girls. Legalized brothels or independent escorts do much, much better.

And in the true entrepreneurial spirit of America — we don’t need to unionize prostitution. An escort should be able to make her money, do her business and live her life.

Sorry — I just don’t see this in terms of making sex workers a special interest group which requires special protections. We all have sex. Some of us charge for that. So what?

Where the law needs to be changed in my opinion is in decriminalizing prostitution and removing the underground and illicit aspects of the business side of things — which is what encourages the mob and other unsavory characters like pimps to exploit women. At least if prostitution were legal (as it is in Nevada) — women could do this work without fear. They’d be in a safe environment, there would be better screening of clients, and there would be access to health services and counseling should it be required.

And you’re quite correct — if sex workers don’t understand the dangers as they exist right now, then they probably shouldn’t be doing this.

I’m open to having the conversation about changing the laws — but this isn’t about “rights”. I mean, come on! You need someone to state in public that you have the right to fuck? If you say so.

And a call to “Johns”? Um… yeah…

As I said — people are rarely prosecuted for prostitution or even misdemeanor solicitation. It happens — but usually on the lower end of the spectrum. It’s an easy collar for vice cops. They set up a sting and nab a few Johns for soliciting a prostitute, fine them 100 bucks and send them on their way — and usually all it does is wind up embarrassing some white suburban married guy looking for a 50 dollar blowjob on a Friday night. This is not the same thing or even the same problem.

(well, add someone else to the list of people I’ve now pissed off on the interwebs! lmao!)

Thanks for getting me into trouble Ichi… you damn dirty ape… lmao!

Mwah!

xoxo,
nina

LMAO! I don’t think I’ve laughed this hard in a long time! wtf??? lol!

“Seal rapes penguin… story at 11″ :lol:

Oh you’re cute allright… but not that cute! ;)

nina

I’m happy to hear that you enjoyed your birthday!

Well — yes, it is complicated. People have strong opinions on all sides of this, but what I’ve come to understand is that it’s very hard to form a good opinion (as a woman) unless you’ve been in that situation for yourself. Keeping an open mind here is what’s necessary I think.

Legalizing prostitution won’t make all the problems go away — you’re absolutely correct. But perhaps it will prevent women from being pushed to the point of suicide or having to live with the shame or hide in the shadows. There is the hypocrisy. We’re perfectly fine with a woman meeting a man for a date and even sleeping with him if she so chooses. So why should we recoil from the fact that he pays her? This is what I’ve begun to have a hard time reconciling.

Then again there are the women who have no other choices in this world and whose only thing of value is their sexuality. This is where pimps and hustlers come into play and where it becomes exploitation. There are many shades of grey here I think.

It’s interesting that your friend would feel regret — perhaps because his reasons for seeking out a prostitute were for as you said “looking for a connection with someone” — that emotional connection which comes from sharing yourself and your sexuality with someone isn’t typically found with someone you’re paying to have sex with you — I wouldn’t think. Humans tend to form deep emotional attachments and bonds thru the sex act — but many people are able to disconnect that and simply enjoy the sex act without that emotional investment.

What I’ve found is that we’re all different — and even tho now I say that I would have a hard time separating the physical from the emotional — at one point in my life, I think I did, and could.

Ultimately I don’t think it’s ever good to judge someone else’s choices, and I don’t believe it’s right to detest someone for the choices they make. We’re all capable of anything under the right circumstances I think — and while as a society there are many things which are worthy of our disgust and utter contempt — I’m not at all convinced that prostitution should be one of them. I don’t think it meets the bar for horrible things humans do to one another.

Thanks much,

nina

I can agree with some points, but I can’t completely be sympathetic with sex workers either, but I do think people should be free to make their own choices as long as they’re not endangering anyone else or their health (it’s that “pursuit of happiness” thing from the Constitution). Afterall, they do make a choice here, and they should know and understand the risks that come with the territory (arrest, diseases [some which are permanent & treatable but uncurable], public outing, stigma, etc); if they don’t understand all that, then they probably shouldn’t be in it.

While men still get roasted for committing adultery or running off with the babysitter (ala Joe Piscopo or Woody Allen with his stepdaughter), it still has less stigma attached than paying cash for sex.

And from the I can’t make this shit up file…
Got a letter today from a company I used to work for and still have 3/4 of a share of stick with (heh heh heh), which was mailed to my old address. What did it say? it was a letter notifying me of my change of address along with my new address included inside in the body of the letter. Even more funny is who the company is.

Music today…
Gerald Fried - “Lament for a Trapped Spy”

Poor poor poor penguin

And this one…just for the hell of it, and it’s good to be king! ;)

Thank you for your response and birthday wishes! And yes, I had a lovely day :)

Reading through all of these comments I think that all the most important arguments have already been made. Though, I’d like to mention that I think you’re absolutely right in saying that it’s still a very complicated situation.

I kind of oversimplified prostitution in my first reply: it’s a very delicate matter and there’s no easy answer. I still believe legalizing it will make for better control and certainly less crime, but there’s no doubt that, even in countries like mine, there are still situations in which women are being exploited. Legalizing prostitution is not going to magically solve all the problems, but it will reduce them significantly.

As for the whole ethics about a woman selling her body: that’s even more complicated. It’s obviously wrong if someone is forced into the business through either a crime syndicate or general lack of wealth. Though, if a woman, on her own free will, chooses to be a prostitute, we don’t have the right to stop them. If it’s not legal, it’s going to happen (under much worse circumstances) anyway.

As a final thought, I’d like to share a little story that just sprang to mind. A couple of years ago, a friend of mine went to a prostitute. He was actually quite young at the time, but even considering his age he thought he thought his chances of ever having a girlfriend again (let alone sex) were very slim. I think there was more to it, but he told me this was the primary reason for going to a prostitute.

Afterwards, he told me he enjoyed the experience. I was quick to judge him: I told him I didn’t agree with his decision, and especially not his reasons for going in the first place.

But guess what? Only two weeks later he met his present girlfriend. They’ve been together for quite some time now, and they’re truly happy together. He hasn’t really said it out loud, but I just *know* that he now regrets going to a prostitute. What he was looking for was to have a connection with someone; to find someone who *wanted* to be intimate with him. Instead, he had sex with someone who wouldn’t have done so if there wasn’t any money involved.

After this all happened I found myself wondering if he’d have gone to a prostitute if it hadn’t been legal in his country (Belgium). I also wondered about my own hypocrisy: if I approve of this being legal, how can I detest the people that actually go to them? Or worse yet, do I only detest people who pay for sex if they are my friends? I don’t have an answer, yet…

Michiel

“I’d be happy to demonstrate!”

Mmmmm…. have a number in mind perhaps? ;)

“Very much so. I’ve written about the differences between having sex with a guy and having sex with another woman, and one of the points I’ve made is that sex with a woman occurs on an entirely different emotional plane than sex with a guy, and there is no “power struggle” that occurs (again, generally speaking). It is much more of a “co-equal” process than the negotiated power context that occurs between a man and a woman.

I don’t use the term “sexual tension dynamics” and and prefer to use “power struggle” because there is indeed sexual tension dynamics between two women - they just play out differently.”

See — this reinforces much of what I’ve written too, especially here, but I feel as tho I need to write more. My biggest problem is that I don’t have enough people in my life with whom I can discuss the intricacies of the Sapphic sexual experience. I’m kind of just following my nose here a bit and I go with makes sense to me on a purely emotional level. And even my relationship with Lisa has evolved over time as I’ve discussed with you — so it isn’t like I’m some vast repository of knowledge there either. I only have my experiences to go on.

But I too see it in terms of sexual tension dynamics (and I appreciate the distinction between that phrase and the phrase power struggle — the latter is a much better way to describe the m/f dynamic, thank you) — which are very present in my relationship with Lisa and exist on a much different level than any of the sexual experiences I’ve ever had with a man. Tho Lisa is not the only woman I’ve been with, she’s the most significant to me and my life.

I think I need to write more about this topic specifically… because I see so much beauty in these things and they satisfy so many “other” sexual and psychological needs for us.

The phrase: “existing on an entirely different emotional plane than sex with a guy” — is something I cannot stress enough agreement for. It’s the perfect way to describe it.

Mwah!

xoxo,
nina

“Right. And it is really no different in the present situation, with the singular exception that the business transaction guarantees success (generally speaking), thereby achieving an equilibrium that satisfies both’s needs.”

I understand. And yes, of course we’re talking in generalized terms and examples. There’s always an exception for everything. But I thank you for helping me ‘catch up’ to some of these ideas and for your vast input and knowledge on the subject. I have no problem admitting my ignorance here (in the literal definition of the word) — but I do appreciate the benefit and value of your research into the topic.

I think too — we need to remember that sex is indeed a ‘human need’ and there’s a bottomless depth of psychological needs and factors which go into developing and forming, and satisfying those needs.

xoxo,
nina

Very much so. I’ve written about the differences between having sex with a guy and having sex with another woman, and one of the points I’ve made is that sex with a woman occurs on an entirely different emotional plane than sex with a guy, and there is no “power struggle” that occurs (again, generally speaking). It is much more of a “co-equal” process than the negotiated power context that occurs between a man and a woman.

I don’t use the term “sexual tension dynamics” and prefer to use “power struggle” because there is indeed sexual tension dynamics between two women - they just play out differently. I’d be happy to demonstrate! ;-)

Right. And it is really no different in the present situation, with the singular exception that the business transaction guarantees success (generally speaking), thereby achieving an equilibrium that satisfies both’s needs.

Another thought; and one you also may have insight on:

With Lisa? Everything just happens in a totally organic spontaneous kind of way. There are none of these “sexual tension” dynamics like there are between males and females. It just happens like we both just expect it to happen without any real question or discussion about it… it’s just completely different. Has that been your experience as well?

nina

Which actually brings us back full circle to where we started — it’s an issue of control; where we control the situation and occurrence of the sex act.

If we think about dating or simple male/female dynamics — and I’ve been off the dating market for a little while so my skills are a bit rusty (more old lady humor) — but I still get hit on quite a bit when I go out dancing and in everyday life situations, tho I know women are much more aggressive now than they were when I was in my “prime” dating period. (good lord… I’m not even 40 and I sound like I’m ready for the retirement home… see what marriage does?? lol)

That dynamic of tension also exists in a marriage or committed male/female situation. Sex may be expected, but it isn’t assured, kwim? I mean, sure, there may be times when a woman is in the mood and the man isn’t (tho rarer I think… I mean, I think I can count on one hand the times when I’ve wanted to and my husband wasn’t up for it… ) — so it’s still a woman’s choice about whether or not to accept the offer of sex from her mate, and it’s usually a male initiated process — tho as I said in my own situation, we’re close to even there.

But I think my point is, and it also goes back to everything I’ve written about men competing for feminine sexual energy, is that it usually falls on the man to approach a woman for sex — and then we’re in the position to weigh the options — (are we attracted to him, does his pheromone signature match our own, are we sexually interested in him) and everything else which goes into our pair bonding process — but the ultimate and final point here, we are always in control of whether or not sex happens — with the exception of rape or some other extreme situation which is outside of the context of this conversation.

So interesting…

Thanks babes!

Mwah!

nina

“one of the things I think caitlain is saying is that many men
in distinguished, high pressure positions of authority,actually relish the opportunity to relinquish all responsibility for a while,and are more than willing to pay an escort to provide that respite for them.”

Hmmm — that’s an interesting perspective. I mean, it’s hard for me to put myself in that male mindset — but I imagine that being with an escort would satisfy many needs beyond sex — as I wrote in comment #6 to Lazy Ichi; that the primary motivator may in fact be sex, perhaps the encounter is satisfying a host of other psychological needs? Even something as basic as feeling virile around an energetic young woman? To truly tap into that running stream of intense feminine sexual energy?

So, perhaps there’s a lot more to this than simply sex for money.

Interesting…

nina

Exactly. As you also suggested, it is usually the man who initiates sex, even in (especially in) long-term relationships. Using the services of an escort puts him in a position where he knows he’s going to get laid and eliminates the need for all of the negotiation and positioning and whatnot, which oftentimes isn’t successful. For men who spend a lot of time on the road or are otherwise too busy with work, life, etc., they just don’t have the time (or the desire) to go through those negotiations when there is a high likelihood of failure. And, of course, quite often, there simply is no sex in long term relationships any longer. The guy could harass the wife about it, but that is counterproductive as well. And then there’s the guys who want to try activities their partner won’t do, or they are afraid to even bring up to their partner.

And thanks for that link to Genet. I, too, was not familiar with that work.

one of the things I think caitlain is saying is that many men
in distinguished, high pressure positions of authority,
actually relish the opportunity to relinquish all responsibility for a while,
and are more than willing to pay an escort to provide that respite for them.

I’ve added a link to your comment. Not everyone may be familiar with Genet.

And No — your keyboard is always welcome here. Always.

Just because you’ve never paid an escort for sex doesn’t invalidate your views or opinions. I’ve never been paid FOR sex and look at me running my mouth! ;)

nina

“In fact, there’s one school of thought that says one reason men pay for the services of an escort is to allow himself to forego the need to be in control. And that applies not just to control during sex, but it refers more to the desire to rid himself of the control he has to exert during the normal day-to-day existence. Being with an escort allows him to relinquish that control to her for that period of time. Of course, this is a generalization, but I think you get the idea.”

Hmmm, that’s interesting. Do you think it comes down to something as simple as removing the pressure from the situation? Where the guy “knows” that he’s going to have sex and isn’t going to have to try and negotiate that or put his moves on just to get a woman into bed? I mean, yes, he’s paying for that — but is it that simple do you think?

Even in marriage or committed situations, very often it’s the man who has to initiate sex, and even tho two people may be a couple, I think that might be a lot of pressure on a man? Maybe?

I mean, in my marriage I’d have to say that we each initiate sex about the same amount, but probably more him than me if I thought about it. This is just something I’ve never considered… that it might be something as simple as that?

nina